Looking at Bro. Stanford’s New Codes Report (Part 3 of 5)

16 Dec

Image result for Errol Stanford picture Mountain Dale
In our last part 2, we discovered some mis-reading of the references. This is not minor, but rather very important in our search for Truth of these New Codes. We are in the part of the report where BS tries to explain the harmony between the Old and New Codes. In his first example, he fails to give us harmony there, Let us continue.

Next BS explains that because Esau and Jacob were from the same father, then in order to fulfill type, we as Davidians much be persecuted by the “Esaus” in our church and that can only happen pre-Ezekiel 9. After that there will be no more Esaus within the SDA church. He posts the following quote —

“Two Classes Of People
The Bible says the twins represent two classes of people. If this is true, then we have two classes of people in the church. One class is represented by Esau, the other by Jacob.Referring to Testimonies to Ministers, page 46, we read:”There are two opposing influences continually exerted on the members of the church. One influence is working for the purification of the church, and the other for the corrupting of the people of God.”

One of the twins was red and hairy, and the other smooth and white. Both people are sinful. Why? Because Esau was red, which is scarlet, the sign of sin. Jacob was white, but the name betrays the man, for the name “Jacob” means “deceiver.”

Symbol Of Birthright
Esau was the one born first. Whatever was to be inherited by the birthright was to be Esau’s. The law of the Bible is that the first-born had the right to the priesthood. For this reason, Jacob coveted Esau’s birthright. Esau, then,represents a class of priesthood.” 1 SR 53,54.

“Thus Inspiration makes it ABSOLUTELY CLEAR the time in which this struggle and deliverance must take place. Jacob and Esau are from the same womb, same church with one father. And as Esau cannot attempt to take the life of Jacob with the help of gentile soldiers, after Ezekiel 9, he must attempt this killing of his brother (Jacob’s time of trouble), before Ezekiel 9.

This is an irrefutable point: how can Esau persecute Jacob after he is dead in Ezekiel 9? Can the dead Esau come back and persecute his brother (unless we believe in spiritualism, and reject Eccl. 9:5,6, that the dead know not anything)? Now according to the Bible and Inspiration, Esau and Jacob were from the same womb (the same church in our case), (See also 1 TG 45:12-16, 23; 1TG 49:7) in which they struggled even before birth(Hos. 12:3; Gen. 25:22-23).

Moreover, Esau did nothing less than attempt to kill his brother along with 400 gentile soldiers. So could our brothers in the Laodicean church (from the same womb), do this to us in the antitype after they are dead in the purification of the church? Did not the prophet explain that “where there is no type there is no truth.”? (1 TG 47:14,15). 1 Obviously they cannot persecute the 144,000 in any form after they are dead, therefore this antitypical persecution of Jacob by his brother in the SDA church, must take place BEFORE Ezekiel 9. Jacob consequently will have trouble before and after Ezekiel 9, but will be delivered.” 

As we have posted so many times before we MUST get out our SROD Index and review ALL the references on Jacob’s time of trouble (or any subject) , to properly put it all together in a harmonious way. Otherwise if we cannot do this, we should, as the Rod counsels, admit we do not have enough light on the subject.

The truest part of Bro. Stanford’s words here are highlighted in red. That is why we cannot harmonize all the references unless we realize there seems to be two applications of Jacob’s time of trouble, one from the SDA church (pre-Ezek. 9) and one from the world’s Esaus (after Ezek. 9). Let us look at some supportive references showing the case —

Isa. 66:5, 6 — “Hear the Word of the Lord, ye that tremble at His Word; Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for My name’s sake, said, Let the Lord be glorified: but He shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed.  A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the Lord that rendereth recompence to His enemies.”

  “Some have already had the experience of being carried bodily out of the churches for no other reason than for having read “The Shepherd’s Rod,” and for having said, “I believe what It says.”  Of course, it is incredible that men should act like demons.  It is nevertheless so, and God Himself testifies against their demon practice. 

We do not pity ourselves, and are not at all angry at our adversaries, but we are sorry about their spiritual blindness, misery, poverty, and nakedness, for we know that the coming joy is to be ours, and the sorrow and shame and gnashing of teeth, theirs.  This we know as verily as Jacob knew that God was with him in his flight from the face of Esau.

The Esaus of today, though, do not know this.  No, they do not know it any more than Esau of old knew of Jacob’s night vision of the ladder that extended from heaven to Jacob’s dew-soaked bed.” (Timely Greetings, Vol. 1, No. 45 , p.14-15)

The Rod acknowledges the existence of “Esaus” in our church now. As rightly so! How many of us, including brother Houteff himself, have been abused by the Esaus within our church in one form or the other? But we got to harmonize it with the following —

6.   That the angels’ letting loose the four winds to blow over the four corners of the earth (Rev. 7:1), does not anticipate a world war but rather a world-wide decree enforced throughout Babylon by the image-beast, and that then no one may buy or sell save he who worships “the image.” Rev. 13:15-17.

7.   That subsequently, the time of Jacob’s trouble (Jer. 30:7) for the 144,000, the sons of Jacob, logically develops on their way home (Gen. 32:1, 24) to the land of their fathers (Ezek. 36:28; 37:21, 25).(Fundamental Beliefs, p. 13)

Looking at the above FB beliefs, how can we square away the two different time periods? BS’s report has a timely reference in it to help us out —

“The trouble lies in the fact that the questioner draws for these events a prescribed line that is altogether too narrowly confined to time, that is, taking for granted that because the time of trouble is to be in the time of the plagues, it could not commence before. Then too, a large proportion of what he read in the publications in question [word to the little flock), must not be taken as absolute time-prophecy of the events mentioned, but simply as an interpretation of Scriptures as they were understood at that time…”(3 SC #1, p. 10)

Notice  the important word “develops”? Even though the time of trouble has it’s start in Bro. Houteff’s day, and we experience it today, it continues until it develops into the post Ezekiel 9 Jacob’s time of trouble, apparently the most serious time of the trouble and the primary application. This is the only way we can harmonize those two references.

We see that this time comes AFTER the church judgment of Ezek.9. We know this because the winds aren’t let loose until after the sealing of the 144,000 takes place. We learned in our prior post from 1 Tract, p.38-39, that the sealing concludes at the same time as Ezekiel 9 occurs (See Testimonies to Ministers, p.445). Inadvertently BS showed us that in his report!

The S.D.A. church, repeating the history of the Jews (5 T 160), will be swayed by its “priests” and “rulers” today to take a course against “the faithful servants of God “similar to that followed by the priests and rulers in their treatment of Christ’s and the apostles’”. As the 144,000 become more and more like their Saviour, “the light of the world.” making manifest the “darkness and error” enveloping the church, the leaders in their “fanatical hatred” of the saints will move “the mob to a mad fury” against them and, in desperation born of blind and raging hatred, will reach out for the civil arm of power to accomplish their evil ends, merging the following type into antitype.(Sym. Code, vol. 1, no.9, p.3).

Swayed indeed!  Yours truly has been a part of the “siege team” a couple of times and have witnessed the fanatical spirit of some of the SDA leaders (mob fury), including calling the police on the Sabbath trying to get us either arrested or taken away  from the premises. Sister Patricia, and her family have been physically escorted out of the church by the strong-arm of the police! Doing nothing but sitting quieting in the seats with her children. Many others have experienced similar strong-arm tactics.

“By having instilled in rank and file throughout Laodicea an unprecedented fear and prejudice against reading or hearing anything but that which enjoys someone’s official sanction and blessing, Satan’s subversives have sought to sever the lines of communication between the Spirit of Truth and the people of God.  Then to hold them in subjection to themselves and their worldly standards, they threaten with disfellowshipment and perdition any who, fearing God more than man, would dare venture to know the Truth for themselves. 

And the few who do have the courage to carry out their convictions, straightway in consequence become targets for the Enemy’s fiercest darts of opposition, — bitterest prejudice, scandalizing falsehood and character defamation, ridicule and scorn and hatred embarrassment and hardship. 

Thus “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 3:12) find themselves “outcasts” (Isa. 66:5; Luke 6:22; Acts 24:14) at the hands of persecutive forces perpetuating and even outdoing the worst that was ever in Judaism and Romanism.  And what is still worse, when these revivalists of tyranny, clothed in apostle like robes, succeed in confusing and overthrowing the faith of an investigator or of a follower of Truth for this very time, they compel him to submit to rebaptism in order to be readmitted into church fellowship, even though he has become more faithful than ever before!  What astounding blasphemy!”(White House Recruiter, p.54-55)

Persecution indeed from the Esaus in our church today, we cannot dispute this.

Moreover, Esau did nothing less than attempt to kill his brother along with 400 gentile soldiers. So could our brothers in the Laodicean church (from the same womb), do this to us in the antitype after they are dead in the purification of the church?

Yes, there could be made a case in the “primary” application, post Ezek. 9. Just as the Rod shows the timeline of JTT as after Ezek. 9 in the FB’s, SOP also has several references placing this also in the time of the Loud Cry, even in the time of the plagues (See  GC, p.615-616, Patriarchs and Prophets, Page 201-203).

As for being Esaus in the church after Ezek. 9, we know that the church will become a new church (purified) and as such no Esaus will be inside it. But it will be filled with Gentiles (Great Multitude).So we are left with the understanding that the persecution part of the anti-type in the post Ezek. 9 timeline , may come from the  purified new member’s (Gentiles) former churches– their Esaus.

How else can we harmonize SOP and the ROD’s post Ezek. 9 persecution from Esau? We admit that the clarity on this part of the subject is not crystal clear.

SHOULD WE NOT BEWARE OF THE SAME ERROR: drawing a line for these events
that is “too narrowly confined to time”, thinking that Jacob’s time of trouble will only take place after Ezekiel 9, or that it cannot start before? Shall we make the same mistakes as the Pharisees? Shall we reject God’s messages in the Codes and call them false inventions because some persons cannot harmonize God’s time line with their own interpretations? Shall we let the enemy rob us of vital truth because we are too hasty,superficial or too prejudiced to diligently and prayerfully seek out the underlying harmony?

Agreed, the narrow timeline is often a mistake. However when we let sink in the above references , we then see that indeed JTT starts within our SDA church, even beginning with Brother Houteff’s time! This timeline is not a narrow one and is very harmonious with ALL the references from the ORIGINAL codes.

In tract # 15 p. 60,61, Ispiration explains that the winds and angels bring about the “great and dreadful day of the Lord.” –two armies in conflict. The nations against the saints, and God’s judgments falling upon his enemies. Page 61 shows that the angels (see Tr # 1 ) can begin to hurt right after the sealing (not necessarily waiting until after Ezekiel 9).

Once again we are puzzled by BS’s mis-reading of the references.Let us read Tract 15, p.61.

“..that the nations from the north and from the south, from the east and from the west were engaged in World War I, and also in World War II, although the 144,000 are not yet sealed, is another irrefutable evidence that the trouble which is forecast by the winds’ blowing and the angels’ hurting, is yet future.  That it is a global disturbance, is again seen in the fact that the winds on the one hand, and the angels on the other hand, are to trouble both earth and sea.

   It being a foregone conclusion that Satan is against the saints, and that the Lord is against the truth-hating and evil-doing multitude, the  subject becomes crystal clear: When let loose, the winds are to strike against the faithful “remnant,” against those who are left after the earth has opened her mouth and swallowed up “the flood,” the “tares” (Rev. 12:16, 17); but the angels who are stationed to hurt, are  to smite those who make war against the remnant. 

Those whose names are found in the book, are “delivered.” Dan. 12:1.  Seeing that the 144,000, the servants of God, are not as yet sealed (not yet enclosed, protected, guarded, and ready to take their stand with the Lamb on Mt. Sion, but rather are still commingled with the tares) the angels are commanded to forestall the clash.

   Consequently, when this sealing work is completed, then the angels who hold the winds, will let the winds blow, and the angels who are to hurt the earth, sea, and trees, will then commence their given work.” 

The red highlighted reference clearly shows the winds hurting AFTER Ezek. 9 which is the consummate time of the sealing. There exist no “intervening time” from the original Codes, written and published by Brother Houteff.

BS should not be teaching things that are not so according to the “Thus sayeth the Lord”.Another mis-read of the text unfortunately.

Note:
“Jacob’s wrestling with the angel typifies the time of “Jacob’s trouble” (for the church). We read in Early Writings, pages 36, 37: “A decree went forth to slay the saints, which caused them to cry and night for deliverance. This was the time of Jacob’s trouble.” See also Patriarchs and Prophets, pages 202-203.

A decree went forth to slay the saints. Now who can dogmatically say that there
can be no government or Assyrian order to slay God’s servants before they are
delivered, before Ezekiel 9?

Did not the authorities kill the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas?

BS  stands  upon the assumption that the “winds are let loose” pre-Ezek.9 allowing government persecution of the saints. As we have already clearly shown this is NOT shown in the original Codes. The only place he can find that idea is in the New Codes. Again this is paramount. One view sends us down a cloudy confusing path, the other to a harmonious clear path.

There will be NO DEATH DECREE prior to Ezek. 9. This is one of the hallmark false ideas spread by believers in the New Codes. So to answer BS’s question  who can dogmatically say that there can be no government or Assyrian order to slay God’s servants before they are delivered, before Ezekiel 9?  Those who trust in God’s ORIGINAL Rod and not the New Codes.

…to be continued in Part 4

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Looking at Bro. Stanford’s New Codes Report (Part 2 of 5)

8 Dec

Image result for Errol Stanford picture Mountain Dale
In our last post,  we ended with the issue of witnesses and bro. Stanford’s summation that their were supportive witnesses. And yes there were, however there were a sizable non-supportive group of DSDA who did not go along with them.

Next we see BS (bro. Stanford) make the point–

“Shall we now more than 50 years later allow a non-witness to rob us of these priceless treasures because he cannot harmonize them to his satisfaction, or be one who may actually have another agenda?”

He suggests that because those who disagree with the often confusing, contradictory and false private predictions of the New Codes may have anagenda”, we sure would like to know what that agenda is? Is it to disrupt Davidia? Is it to mount the judgment seat with this issue to exalt self and our causes?

We do not believe those who stand against them have a desire to anything but “get it straight” and stand upon the more sure word, the Rock of Jesus.

Personally speaking, we do not have an “agenda”, rather we WANT THE TRUTH and only want It proclaimed among us.  So rather than claim those who dis-agree with the New Codes may have an agenda, how about trying to see it through the fact that many DSDA are “studying for themselves” in order to be approved and discovering way too many areas of compromise within them?

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” ( 2 Tim. 2:15)

What the enemy did to Seventh Day Adventist through infiltrators, as reflected in this scripture, (see 1 Answerer p. 70), don’t you think that he will try to do to Davidians (rob and spoil us of our precious truth through sophistry or other means)? Shall we not be on guard? The prophet warns us: “Teach the message as it is—add nothing to it, neither take anything from it. …”

Please let us be aware that there are several ways of taking away from God’s word. One of the most subtle and hence, more dangerous, is to take away the effect of his Word by casting doubt on its authenticity. Let us be wise like the Bereans and know that some of the most dangerous enemies of the Message are it’s pretended friends.

Did you know that according to brother Stanford, you are considered a “most dangerous enemy of the Message” and linked with the likes of Florence Houteff, Ben Roden, etc, because you don’t believe in the New Codes? Did you known that once we start an honest discussion about the truthfulness of these Codes, and share and express our doubts and concerns, we arecasting doubt on its authenticity.”?

Right here we can see that BS truly needs to humble himself in prayer and cease from the exalted judgment seat. Thankfully we know God is raising up people right now within Mt. Dale who are challenging this long-held and neglected area of the compromised New Codes.

Let us remember this goes both ways. Those who are at the diametrically opposite position of Stanford, those who condemn those who believe in them, likewise are mounters of the judgment seat. We’ll discuss this more at the end of our series, in our summary. Let us continue.

Apparent Contradictions in Old and New Codes

In this next section of BS’s report he starts by showing how even the Bible, Rod and SOP can be made to contradict itself. Of this we agree and among his quotes he uses is —

“Those who have not been in the habit of searching the Bible for themselves, or weighing evidence, have confidence in the leading men, and accept the decisions they make; and thus many will reject the very messages God sends to His people, if these leading brethren do not accept them.” — Gospel Workers, p. 303; Testimony to Ministers, pp. 106, 107.

One thing we note here is that the very quote BS uses should be carefully studied and applied unto himself. By that we mean that as one of the main leaders of Mt. Dale, he has a responsibility to “get it straight” on this subject because he is one of the more vocal leaders and often leads out in some of their projects as evidenced by being the pro-Code spokesman for the Mt. Dale’s last session.

After several examples of Scriptural, SOP, and Rod “apparent” contradictions, BS then goes on to explain  how harmony is found within with the New Codes and original Codes.

Now let us seek for “the underlying harmony” in the apparent contradictions.

TIME OF JACOB’S TROUBLE.
There are references showing that Jacob’s time of trouble is after Ezekiel 9,the
purification of the church. There are also evidences and types to show that there will be a time of trouble for Jacob with his brother Esau before the purification.

So is there really a problem? In reality no. Jacob will have trouble “before and behind”, before the purification and after the purification. Now let us examine these harmonious positions.

Here we agree. This is plain to those who study the Rod. In other words, there appears a double application, although not named as such in the Rod. Although we as DSDA must go by the “pillars” of our faith the –-Fundamental Beliefs. Our primary application here (after Ezek. 9). We would never think to insert a stick for a pillar, trying to use some supposed references from the Rod as paramount to the FB’s timeline.  

The following references establish that on his way home to Palestine, Jacob will have trouble: 2TG #10, 29-31; FB 12,13; 2SC #9:6; 2SC #1:9-10;10SC#8:4;11SC #1:13; 13SC #1,2:10.” Since no one questions these–(trouble for Jacob after Ezekiel 9), we need not elaborate on this. 

But here are other points to consider, which though on the surface contradictory, are in reality evidence of good underlying accord. Let us look at 1Tr. p. 38,39; and 11 SC 7:8-9.

We will also compare the two statements one from the Old Code or literature and the other from the so-called “New Codes”.

“After the sighing and crying ones were marked (which is not to be understood as
being consummated in its entirety worldwide before the slaying follows anywhere), the slaughter completed, and the matter reported, the Lord “spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels even under  the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city.” Ezek. 10:2.

Notice the point of focus in this paragraph: “which is not to be understood as being consummated in its entirety worldwide before the slaying follows anywhere”. This is in perfect harmony with the statement expressed in 11SC 7: 8-9. (Blue Book 591). “You notice here that the angels are not told to hold the winds until Ezekiel 9 has all been fulfilled, but until the servants of God are sealed.”

The one statement is saying that the hurting by the angels could start before sealing is fully completed, and the other statement is saying there could be some trouble by the winds before Ezekiel 9. Now the problem only comes if we mark out an EXACT time line for each event as though there could be no blending or overlapping.

Important Counter point -BS’s mis-read of the text.

Stanford explains the first of his underlying harmonious discrepancies. Let’s review and re-read an important part of 1 Tract, p.38-39 reference.

“After the sighing and crying ones were marked(which is not to be understood as
being consummated in its entirety worldwide before the slaying follows anywhere)…”

Note: The marking is not to be understood as being completed (consummated) in entirety BEFORE the slaying (of Ezek. 9) starts (anywhere). What BS has done is mis-read the text! He has taken liberty to say “the slaying” as being a different slaying apart from Ezek. 9.

How do we notice this? Because the CONTEXT shows us only ONE slaying it speaks about –Ezek. 9. Further we see that the marking (sealing) is the main point here and shows us that  the marking will be consummated ONLY AT THE EZEK. 9 EVENT.  Not before this.

This one reference actually proves BS’s whole idea–wrong. Because he and those in agreement with the New Codes all teach that there will be an “intervening time”. In other words, the sealing is completed before Ezek. 9 , which Inspiration just said won’t happen(“not to be understood as being consummated”).

Read the whole context–

“And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt Thou destroy all the residue of Israel in Thy pouring out of Thy fury upon Jerusalem?  Then said He unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great,…and as for Me also, Mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity.” Ezek. 9:8-10.

   After the sighing and crying ones were marked (which is not to be understood as being consummated in its entirety worldwide before the slaying follows anywhere), the slaughter completed, and the matter

Tract 1                            38

reported, the Lord “spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in between the wheels even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the city.” Ezek. 10:2.

When we take the reference in context we obviously see that the slaying mentioned is the slaughter of Ezek. 9, not some  different slaying added by private interpretation. BS’s idea is certainly showing a mis-read of the text.

The following shows where the New Code believers get this idea of hurting or slaying by the angels prior to Ezek. 9 —

“You notice here that the angels are not told to hold the winds until Ezekiel 9 has all been fulfilled, but until the servants of God are sealed.  Therefore, if there is any intervening time between the close of the sealing and the slaughter of Ezekiel 9, there is a possibility that the winds could start blowing during that time.  If the nations had everything ready, it would not necessarily take long to bring the trouble that is represented by the four winds.

We do know from this scripture that God will restrain the winds until the sealing is finished, for according to verse 3 of this chapter a message was sent to the four angels instructing them to hold the winds until the sealing of the 144,000 is finished.  It shows that the Devil is doing all he can to loose the winds as soon as possible, perhaps even in a day.” (11 SC, no. 7, p.8)

Do we see why there is real discrepancies in the New Codes versus the original?  This is but one example of the contradictions that yours truly, along with many others, believe Florence Houteff/and or her hand-picked council attempted to put into the Golden Bowl!

Here is another point to consider. The fear factor

Why would Jacob be exceedingly afraid as projected in Jeremiah 30:5-8 “every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail”, if Ezekiel 9 has already passed and he consequently knows that he is alive and therefore sealed and cannot die?

Why would he be afraid if he is already sealed to be part of the 144,000 who cannot die, for nothing can take his life? In short, why would the sealed and protected (144,000) be terribly afraid? It would only make sense if this takes place BEFORE Ezekiel 9, when they are not sure who is sealed. Why should they be frightened, knowing that they are sealed and cannot die?

This is nothing more than doubting in the Rod because as we will see it is the ROD who places Jer. 30:5-8 in the time of “returning to the homeland”. Let us carefully read the reference —

We QUOTE from 1 TG 47:14-15

Jer. 30:7 — “Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the
time of Jacob’s trouble, but he shall be saved out of it.”

“The people that have come to this antitypical time of trouble are returning to
the homeland, are comforted. Apparently it is bad enough to frighten all, but
God’s encouraging counsel is, “Fear not.” Plainly, the burden of this chapter is concerning the antitypical returning to the homeland. Though terrible the trouble may seem, yet the outcome of it is to be the same as in the type.

Right now we may not appreciate this study as we ought to, but the time is soon coming in which we will dig as fast and as hard for it as we would to get out from under an avalanche. Those who have but little faith in the Word of God though, the study will not do them much good. Now is the time to start cultivating the faith we need to have then.”

Some questions on this same point:

“Would there be any persons of the 144,000 (the escaped ones), with “little faith in the Word of God”after the sealing and Ezekiel 9? Would not this have to be before?

Once again these questions cast doubt upon the clear word of God. Re-read the text again.Plainly, the burden of this chapter is concerning the antitypical returning to the homeland.”

Is pre-Ezekiel 9 “returning to the homeland” timeline?

Also, after Ezekiel 9, why would the 144,000 who are sealed, safe, delivered from the slaughter and protected, need to be fearfully digging “as fast and as hard for it [this study] as we would to get out from under an avalanche.” This would only make sense in their trouble BEFORE Ezekiel 9, does it not? Consider also in the following quote, the emphasis and significance of the word “before”.

Private doubts are cast again upon the Rod. Let us stand  firm on the Rod and not be taken and snared  by presumptuous and salacious questions such as these. If God said it, it will come to pass, that is all we need to know. Are we to know all details and purposes? No, that is why our “faith” in the word “as it reads” is paramount.

….To be continued in Part three.

Looking at Bro. Stanford’s New Codes Report (Part 1 of 5)

27 Nov

Image result for Errol Stanford picture Mountain Dale

As we continue our series of the New Code debate, due to the fact that we were thrust into it by Mt. Dale using our blog here as a counterpoint to their official stance on these Codes, we decided to look closely at brother Errol Stanford’s report in support of these Codes. This report seems to be the official or at least the latest one on the New Codes.

It is quite a lengthy report but we shall address the major points he makes. Following the heels of our last report showing that Florence Houteff had the motive and means (New Codes) to complete her scheme to clean out the store, so to speak, we can segue into Stanford’s report and by God’s grace see if it stands upon the “more sure word” and is solid. In other words is it “Logical” and compiled by a “Close Reasoner” as the Rod would say?

To be sure, after reviewing this report, Stanford appears quite dogmatic in his stance. This makes Mt. Dale certainly more uneasy as they have several (and some high ranking) members who do not share this report’s viewpoint. The sources we speak to share many of other brethren’s viewpoint that this Code issue cannot be used as a “Thus sayeth the Lord” due to the many compromises proven.

We do not want to say a mutiny is coming but we see that this issue MUST come  to some solidified official stance and it cannot be the same old same old. Times have changed with more brethren all across Davidia coming into more facts and historical understanding of this issue. As we mentioned before, the first and one of the best, in our opinion, report exposing this issue was from Lennox Sam and Michael Graham’s report. Other brethren have posted helpful reports as well since then exposing the situation. This has now finally come into Mt. Dale’s lap, and by God’s providence it will be set  straight.

Our prayer is that the Spirit of Truth will have His way with us —

“But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; He will speak only what He hears, and He will tell you what is yet to come.” (John 16:13)

Let us begin.  (His words will be in green)

CAN THE NEW CODES (PUBLISHED AFTER 1955) BE VALIDATED?

“There are a few persons today who are questioning the authenticity of the sermon Codes published after bro. Houteff’s death in 1955. (From 10 Symbolic Code # 7 to 13 Symbolic Codes, #’s 11, 12). They claim that they may not be genuine because they were published after his death and there are apparent contradictions between the earlier published works by the prophet himself and those of his sermons/writings published afterwards. Can the New Codes be substantiated? It is the purpose of this article to address these important questions and issues.”

Stanford begins by trying to minimize this issue “a few persons”. No, it is not a “few persons” brother Stanford–it is ALOT of persons. Here we can gain his mindset showing that the issue according to him is simply a greater belief in Davidia vs. the tiny few. While it may be that more believe in the authenticity, that number is shrinking and the opposing view is gaining as more facts come to the surface via electronic media today.

Now what does the word “publish” mean? For maximum objectivity we shall consult an official English dictionary. Let us take the Miriam Webster dictionary, for example. Here the word is defined.

a) To make generally known
b) To disseminate to the public
c) To make public announcement
d) To produce or release for distribution, print
e) To issue the work of an author.

From the above official dictionary definition we see that the word “publish” is NOT limited to the printing press. Consequently, when the prophet preaches a sermon before a congregation or group of persons, it harmonizes perfectly with the dictionary mean of “publish” –making known/ announcing, etc.

The first official  point Stanford tries to make is that the “world’s” interpretation of the word “publish” should be used to clarify God’s word and It’s meaning, yes unbelievable as it sounds. Then by the same token why don’t we look up “Woman” in the dictionary for the word “Woman” in Revelation, doesn’t that make common sense? Now brethren this is truly an illogical stretch here. His first point seriously misses the mark.

The ONLY way we can get the correct interpretation of the word “publish” is by review  of how the Rod makes use of that word! Stanford or anyone else can never show one reference from the Rod showing anything other than the meaning “published” meaning the Rod writings. For solid proof  see 1 SC- no. 8, p.8, 1 SC- no.7, p.5,6, 3 SC- no.5-6, p.14 and 2 SC -no.12, p.11. This is the Rod’s viewpoint and interpretation of “published” and not a private man’s view using a “foreign standpoint”.

“The most common cause of doctrinal confusion among Bible students lies in their so very frequently failing to view a subject in full perspective from the writer’s point of view, — a failing which results in their seeing it from some foreign standpoint so narrowing their view that instead of gaining the writer’s idea on the subject, they gain a false idea on it.” (Tract 3, p.91)

At this point we’d like to show a very interesting dialogue from brother Houteff and long time S.D.A pioneer M.L. Andreasen.

“The most satisfactory part of the interview concerned the matter for which the interview had been sought: that of confirmation on his part the public statements published in the two volumes of the “Shepherd’s Rod” were still his belief and teaching.

I mentioned that it was often the case that a man in his early published views, made statements that he would later gladly retract, and that this might be the case with him. If this were so, I would like to know, for I did not wish to use anything that he later repudiated.

On this matter he was certain. He turned to me and said: “We do not work that way. We do not claim that the words are inspired but the idea is. We do not change our teaching, and have not done so. What is published we still stand by and always will.” (Letter by Gen. conf.field secretary from M.L. Andreasen, Dec. 25, 1942)

Here we see that VTH and Andreasen showed the mutual understanding of “published” and that is the –writings. What VTH stands by is the written published word.

It is clear Stanford needs to make this leap of mental gymnastics to lay one of his foundational pillars for believing in the New Codes. But we can see this first point is not well grounded.

At the point we want to present several solid reasons/evidences why the sermon Codes are trustworthy, scriptural and genuine sermons of Bro. Houteff and then we will address the apparent contradictions and show the underlying harmony. Here are solid facts to consider:

1. The sermons constituting the so called “New Codes” were presented (published) by Bro. Houteff on the specific dates given before many believers as witnesses. And now we have seen the English dictionary has validated sermons as being included in the word “published”.

2.         Bro. Houteff’s sermons were usually reproduced verbatim (word for word) by
designated persons, or written by himself for presentation, and found in his card files.

3. Thus to question the reliability of memories to reproduce the sermons is not valid; there was no question of depending on persons’ memories. You only had to consult the card files.

4. These sermons were published shortly after Bro. Houteff’s death while many of the members and witnesses who heard the sermons were alive and could readily identify with what was preached by the prophet.

5. There is not a single record of any of the numerous brethren on Mt. Carmel and elsewhere, making the slightest protest concerning the genuineness of these sermons or even insinuating that they were changed, when they were published.

6. They were not printed 10, 20, 30 or 40 years after his death. Praise God! They were published very shortly after his death, some even the very next year. To repeat, most of those who heard these specific sermons were alive and able to verify. But best of all the sermons had been written, and not just presented orally.

7. Some of the sermons like “The latter-day confederacy” were presented more than once by bro. Houteff. See 13 SC # 2,3. Thus there were double records in his card files.

The bible says:
“…. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.(2 Cor. 13:1-3)

Now since the Bible tells us, “in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” Shall we not follow this biblical principle? Yes, the Bible is always right. Some of these witnesses like Bro. Don Adair, are still alive. Besides we have had several older Caucasian brethren who were part of Waco and heard Bro. Houteff’s sermons, etc, brethren who have been in Mt. Carmel New York, HQ for many years, and there never was the slightest doubt about the genuineness of these sermons. Shall we now more than 50 years later allow a non-witness to rob us of these priceless treasures because he cannot harmonize them to his satisfaction, or be one who may actually have another agenda?

Here we see that Stanford attempts to make his second point or pillar of truth, that because there are witnesses that heard the sermons, they were/are legitimate for written publication. But let’s carefully dissect this view-point.

“The sermons constituting the so called “New Codes” were presented (published) by Bro. Houteff on the specific dates given before many believers as witnesses.”

In our report on a recent three-part blog post called “Let’s have thousands of home storehouses” we show that the “old timers” made use of and supported the New Codes in their reports and sessions. This is why we believe that we cannot summarily sweep aside this issue dogmatically , as some present truth believers do, and say those who do believe in them are lost. Our history proves we must each individually search this issue out and be convinced in our own mind after due diligence study.

The only TWO who we as DSDA know who are still alive and proclaiming the message are brother Don Adair and sister Bonnie Smith. However they were but children during all the sermons posted under the New Codes and can’t be relied upon for solid substantial witnesses other than describing some of the old timers views on them.

But we want to highlight something here that needs to be addressed. Yes, the early (post VTH) Davidian groups showed an acceptance of the codes back in the days after the death of VTH, but there were objectors to these codes . This part though, Stanford ignores and doesn’t address in his report. Once the evidence was clear that the New Codes were being manipulated by Florence Houteff and her hand-picked council,  to have an agenda (42 months doctrine by Florence Houteff) some of the more observant DSDA voiced their objections to them.

The objecting DSDA made it clear to FH and her council through their “protest letter” dated April 9, 1959, just days prior to the knockout blow, the following —

“..We may pardonably emphasize the fact that when the Council’s predictions and program as set forth in Codes, Vol. 14, Nos.6,8, and 9, come to naught (30th day of this April [1959] is the absolute limit of the 3 1/2 years embraced in their own pronouncement: “..we have already [November 1955] entered the period of forty-two months…” — 11 Code 1:13:3, it will be the private predictions and the private program of the new- Code and new-Carmel, not the inspired program of the ROD which will thus be denuded of integrity, discredited, and humiliated. The ROD and genuine ROD Davidians will endure to the end to finish their Heaven-ordained mission to the Church and to the world.” (Our bold highlight added)

These pioneers knew very well the manipulation of the New Codes was their vehicle, their “private program”, thus compromise and a cloud of suspicion rested clearly with FH and her council by the observant old timers in regards to their published New Code program.

….To be continued in Part two.

Jewels from Bro. Saether’s Interview (Part 6 of 6) / Final Summary

17 Nov

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Our last post for this series. Let us now conclude with the jewels of this important eye witness and then a final summary.

SAETHER: Right then and there what I should have said and insisted
on, was that this thing should be brought before the council and if
it could be proven we’d accept it. But, if it can’t, we’ll tell the
people there’s a mistake made. How easy that would have been compared
to what happened. Well, I didn’t know what to do about it.

McGEE: How did the other members of the council react? How did the other people here in the camp react to that? I guess they were as surprised as you were?

SAETHER: I don’t know whether they were or not because she’d
talked to me all that Friday afternoon trying to persuade me.
I couldn’t see it. What I had decided to do was go along with her.
I said to myself, “We selected this person to be the leader, the
damage has been done. The people have all received this literature.”
There was one time I was going along when it was against my nature
to do it, rather than cause a fuss. Well, I should have done it….

McGEE: All right. Then along comes this message that we’re in
the last days—”We’re in these days.” How did the people respond
to that over the next year or two?

SAETHER: I think there was division came in then, more than before.
This came out November 9, [1955].

McGEE: … Well, that happened on this Day of Days, October 25,
1955? The Rodens, you say, were back here on October 25.

SAETHER: Yes, and it was the same thing, trying to get a foothold
some way or other.

McGEE: Were they able to get a foothold?

SAETHER: Not with anybody here, I don’t think. As I recall, there
wasn’t anybody that went with them ….  those people are deceitful, those Rodens. Deceitful. They’re treacherous. Because they’re possessed of the devil.
They must be. They’ve resorted to various forms of incantation. 

Let us remember these comments were made by Saether eye witnessing evidence to make these claims. The thievery and the incantations showed a spirit not of Christ, but of the adversary. Also we are reminded of the following Scripture —

“A lone witness is not sufficient to establish any wrongdoing or sin against a man, regardless of what offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.” (Deut. 19:15)

Sister Bonnie Smith as mentioned also testified that Roden was a thief. The thing established.

McGEE: Let’s follow up on this—

SAETHER: Oh, I ought to tell you this, though, to show you the
way that they worked…We figured this way, they’re gonna come and have a sit-down
strike….We were outside and I noticed Nelda and another woman who came from California. She’s the mother-in-law of Perry Jones. She used to be one of our nice neighbors. When she came on a visit we thought a lot of her. But in that meeting
there in October—the tenth—my, she was changed altogether. You
wouldn’t think it was the same person…

I saw these two women come down this way from the south and I thought, I’ll just go over there and see what they’re up to. So they came here to this door right here, this is where my wife and I lived. We had these rooms right here. One was the spokesman and she knocked on the door, “Behold I stand at the door and knock. So you open the door.” No answer. My wife was working in the office and I was outside. “Behold your house is left unto you desolate.” You see, there was incantation. It’s from the devil. It is!

I went back to the office later on and the wind was out of their sails. They were allowed to come in the office. That is, two or three at a time. Roden was in there. He wanted to buy some charts and Hermanson asked him, “Are you prepared to pay your bill here?” When he came here as a gardener he ran quite a bill. He just ignored what he said. He didn’t pay any attention to it. I’m pretty sure that he still owes that bill. He didn’t pay it.

He volunteered to come and have an organic garden. It takes something to put a large family—to come and stay for months at a time and no income. That was his agreement but he owed this seven hundred dollars anyway, for rent and food and one thing and another. That indicates the kind of a leader they had behind them.
It’s of the devil. ..I understood that afterwards Roden claimed to be a prophet and
the leader.

 They made close to 700,000 for the selling of the land in about 1957. They kept only about 10 acres. Let us keenly focus on the following —

Saether: When we were selling this property here in Waco she sold— I’ve forgotten how many acres, herself, without any okay from the council at all. And to this day I don’t know what the price she got for it. I don’t remember and I think it wasn’t clear how much she got but I think she made a big mistake doing that. And, not only that, it was illegal. 

She didn’t have the backing of the council. That was the agreement; all the sales had to be okayed first by the council. And then the board of trustees— signed the deeds to the properties that we sold. We sold lot by lot. 

SUMMARY —

There is ample evidence to show from brother Saether’s report that two individuals stand out as the ringleaders of the apostasy that tried to infiltrate our movement that the Lord made through  brother Houteff –Florence Houteff and Ben Roden.

To a lesser degree, but no less important, was M.J. Bingham’s more cunning deceptions that would surface later on and hold a greater trouble for the Truth seekers than the prior two, because of the plausibility of Bingham’s additions to the Golden Bowl.

But Florence was shown to ultimately not be truly “converted” but rather “went along” with the movement, because when the Lord tested her (by the death of VTH), she failed miserably. Brother Houteff, under Inspiration clearly pointed this out —

“Everything that can be done against God’s message of today will be done with even a greater vengeance than was manifest against Heaven’s message in the days of Christ’s first advent, for the Devil knows that if he loses now, he loses forever — that he is to have no other chance. Unparalleled, therefore, is the urgency that every eleventh-hour church member now quickly and solidly brace himself against the Enemy’s effort to deliver a knockout blow.  We must be alert, too, to realize that the blow is to come from surprisingly unsuspected foes — from professed friends of the gospel, who are no less pious than were priests in Christ’s day.” (WHR, p.33)

As we saw , she right away began her move to undermine the movement, and also as we saw, most likely for the financial wealth she stood to gain, and ultimately did. Evidently she used the ploy to call the Lord’s hand and force the prophecy of the 42 months to happen. Knowing full well her rouse would lead to her ultimate goal of dismemberment  of the movement and gain for her and her family.

Her cunning vehicle to use to spread her ploy was –the NEW CODES! Yes, in the sacred writings of the Lord’s Rod, the Symbolic Codes, she found a way to add and subtract key areas of the message to point to her 42 month prophecy. After all, nearly all was unsuspecting that she was not a solid believer in the message (being the secretary and wife of the prophet). Thus, she had the perfect con job in place for her schemes.

For an excellent report on ONE powerful Example of the obvious additions made by Florence Houteff to the New Codes (Sixth Trumpet understanding), see the following report by Lennox Sam. As we posted before we DO NOT advocate Sam’s GADSDA organization, due to their own ideas and additions to the Golden Bowl, but we do agree with this older report on the Codes —

https://www.gadsda.com/new-codes-abomination/

(Maybe brother Errol Stanford can address this at a later date, being one of the most vocal advocates of the New Codes being Holy Spirit Inspired and promoting it as “truth”)

In regards to Ben Roden, there is no doubt that eye witnesses (at least three, bro. Don Adair, bro. Saether, and sis Bonnie Smith) saw the “real” Ben Roden and who/what he was about. And it wasn’t a Holy Spirit filled “prophet” but rather a usurper who fleeced the flock and snared many down through the years. Their current leader (Branch DSDA) being Trent Wilde , who now holds the unholy mantle and continues to spread Satan’s imitation prophetic ideas and truth.

His fruit exposed him clearly and only those who desire “truth” will know for a certain that Roden and the “Branch” teachings are Satan’s handy work.

In closing, we thank the Lord for preserving brother Saether’s report and also for inspiring Mr. McGee to investigate and get out some real Davidian history.

Here is link to read the full transcripts and audio —

http://digitalcollections.baylor.edu/cdm/ref/collection/buioh/id/1214

Jewels from Bro. Saether’s Interview (Part 5 of 6) /Summary

28 Oct

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Well brethren, what we’ve learned is truly remarkable. The prior 4 posts have shown us many , many jewels of first hand accounts regarding our main subject –Florence Houteff and Ben Roden, and their works of deception and subversion.

Both of these people are directly responsible for two of some of the biggest snares right now in our Davidian people. FH  with her “new codes”,and Ben Roden with his “feast keeping” and Branch doctrine.

As our readers know we’ve had an ongoing series regarding the new codes and their myriad of problems they possess. But if we truly follow Inspiration and “study” this issue , all should have no problem seeing the “Truth” of the matter.

“Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Tim. 2:15)

Let’s review some specific jewels that are noteworthy.

“The doctrines had been drawn up and published. His work was finished”. (Saether)
This was describing what Saether summed up on VTH’s work in 1954, while VTH ‘s health was deteriorating.

“The next year after he died, one of the first things she told the council was that—“I want to study the Bible now, I have some things on my mind.” What she did was go back to this Timely Greetings, Volume II, number fifteen and decipher that.”

Florence Houteff had an agenda and that was Rev.11, the anti-typical 1260 days. Convinced that VTH’s death meant something in this regard she started deciphering the literal application to apply somehow someway to their time. Unlike VTH who did not explain it, it appears Florence felt her job was to do that for her own ulterior motives.

“Mrs. Houteff said that he told her that he wanted her to be the leader… But I’ve thought since it was a big mistake. Mrs. Houteff and her brother and her mother, all in one family, all in the council. Just unthinkable. Unthinkable.”

As we know Saether and us today knew that FH pushed her way in as leader, relying on her story that brother Houteff “told her” she was to be the leader. Thus the motive and authorization rested solely with her own story. And to ensure her agenda she placed on the council her family members. Thus the coup was ready to move forward. Hijack the work done and the Lord’s Rod message.

At this point it’s noteworthy to make mention of another important issue. Some present truth believers have made a big deal that those on the council today should not be voted in, thereby making it foolish to have a legal Rod council. But VTH’s history shows us the practice they used as spoken by Saether.

” ..it was the duty of the council to fill any vacancies among the officers. The council members were to be chosen by the council. At first they were appointed by Brother Houteff. He made this suit himself. I mean—he wasn’t about to relinquish any hold on it…Then as time went on he could see that it was—didn’t take him very long then, to consider that it was necessary to have this thing on some kind of a legal basis…The way he had it, all the officers and all the council members were  to be selected by a vote of the council in session.  Except the president.”

Let’s move on to brother Bingham. This summary report is just briefly going to highlight him, as the other two were more involved in our two subjects of the New codes by FH and Branch leader apostasy of -Ben Roden. But Bingham played an important role during the knock-out period in steadying the ship, along with brother Warden.

“Bingham had been Brother Houteff’s right-hand man years before, years before. He got into the trouble here and he was out of here for years. He came back in again
and this time, while this was going on, he was sent as a missionary down into the Caribbean. I think at the time he was in one of those islands down there… I knew he wanted to be the leader and I, for one, was determined that he wouldn’t be…

Wolfe was another candidate and I was just as opposed to him, maybe even more so. More so because, primarily, Bingham and I always got along all right. He left me alone
and I left him alone. He was always courteous to me, never discourteous…There was another man that I think was grooming himself to be the leader. He’d been here for a short while, several months. He had a garden down next to the lake. I don’t know
whether it ever amounted to anything. I wasn’t here at the time. This was in 1953. His name was Roden—Benjamin Roden…in 1955 is when he started his demands to take over Mt. Carmel. I think he was possessed by the devil because he used the devil’s tactics in—.”

This is one of the most startlingly discoveries we made. Ben Roden was, according to first hand witness brother Saether, really a foul fruit bearer. It is noteworthy to say that two other firsthand witnesses, and still living members of the old camp, Sister Bonnie Smith and Brother Don Adair back these sediments up completely. Adair’s book “A Davidian Testimony” goes much deeper into the history of Roden and his behavior and troubles in the vineyard. Sister Smith tells us of the personal story how Roden stole her parents money, with a personal promise to take them to Israel. It never came to be and the money was used elsewhere! No repentance or asking for forgiveness ever made!

“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.” (Matt. 7:16-17)

Yes, we know the excuse that “Well Moses and even David were sinners” .True BUT they repented and went on to do powerful work for the Lord. Roden NEVER repented and yet claimed to be God’s prophet–blasphemy! Sorry God does not work that way.

” if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die.” (Ezekiel 33: 15)

Back to more of FH–

McGee –“Immediately after his death was there any indication that Mrs. Houteff wanted to become the leader?”

Saether — “Well, only that she came to the council room and said that Brother Houteff had indicated that she should be the leader…I don’t think it was his idea. She might have questioned him, see… I think the Hermanson family really—we say, we have that saying, “put one over on the rest of us.”What is the word they—we want? (pause) Pulled a coup d’etat,

McGEE: How did the council go about and when did they begin going about dealing with the question of the leadership? Who would be the leader? Did they do it a month after Brother Houteff’s death or was it a year later or just when?

SAETHER: It was immediate. The day of the funeral. Maybe even before the funeral. It might have been even before the funeral, Oliver came to me and he said this: “Before Brother Houteff died he told Florence that she should be the vice president and be the
manager and that I should be elected to the council, as a council member, to assist her.

… Well—but right away we heard from Bingham. Brother Bingham thought he should be the leader. Wolfe had resigned from the council. 

Again, we see that because brother Houteff was in failing health, the vultures were circling. Ready to pounce once the prey was dead. As we’ve reviewed in entirely this interview there is no doubt that FH and her family had plans to take over and not surprisingly a big part of the those plans was– the vast property holdings Mt. Carmel had. Hundred’s of thousands of dollars maybe even a million. Now the answer to the question of motive as to why the knock out blow was formulated seems very plausible –money.

For concrete evidence of this planning Saether says–

Saether: ..If the modus operandi had changed in 1954, and maybe that’s where they got the idea that the council—the officers should meet with the council. When we came to the council meeting I was presented with a sheet of paper—and Mrs. Houteff told the very same thing that Oliver told me. Only she thought it was better to make it official so she put it in black and white that Brother Houteff had given her the idea that she should lead out in the organization—and Wolfe spoke up…I think the Hermansons were ambitious..

Brother Wolfe and others such as bro. Bingham, Warden, etc. definitely smelled a rat here and was against this coup d’etat, as brother Saether put it.

Speaking of vultures gathering, the most forceful vulture was Roden, who appeared right after VTH’s death.

SAETHER: Of 1955—that Roden came to the fore.

Moving right now to the subject of brother E.T Wilson we see from bro. Saether that probably many of us didn’t know that elder Wilson was sick and therefore not up to the job, let us read —

McGEE: Brother Wilson did not resist the idea of Mrs. Houteff being named vice president in his place?

SAETHER: He was sick at the time and I don’t know how it was that his name was by-passed. As I see it now, he was considered incompetent. I think maybe he was. There was something eating on him. He was here—right here in this building in one of these
rooms, in what we called the dispensary. We had a duplex here…He was in here as I understand it. He was not out in field work. He was here as a patient.

McGEE: Anyway, he was in no position I suppose to object to this
and as far as you know he did not object to being replaced?

SAETHER: No.

Now we move on once more to FH, showing the beginning seeds of her “prophesying” —

Saether:  ..in 1955 and Mrs. Houteff cornered me one day in the office. We closed at noon on Friday so everybody could go home and get ready for Sabbath. She cornered  me there and she talked all afternoon to me, trying to persuade me
to her idea in Revelation 11…I was courteous with her, I wasn’t rough. I should have
even made fun of it but I didn’t. She was in earnest, I thought she’d lost her mind…I thought that Mrs. Houteff was wrong but she talked all afternoon. Hour after hour. Pleading with me. Just pleading. What she should have done was taken it to the council. What she did was go to each individual in the council and talk with them about it.

That’s what she must have done because in the fall of the year we sent out a code—every month a code came out. In this code, on November 9, we opened them—we got them over at the office—they were sent out to the—that’s what was printed I think, as I recall. Fifteen hundred had been sent out to the people and there it says, “We’ve now entered these days.” When I opened it up I was dumbfounded. I knew she talked to me about it but that’s the last I heard of it. Not another word was said.

In March—it was in March that she told me this or April, March, we’ll say. April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, eight months—not a word. Not a word was said. In the council or anywhere else. It was just kept on the q,t. Then, she come out and said we’d entered these days. Hermanson was getting his mail—they were distributing the mail over in the office, to the office workers. He got his code, too, with the mail and he gave us each our code. The codes had been sent out. Taken down to the post office.

So they’d gone out to all the people. I said, “Did you see this?” “Yes.” “We’ve now entered these days, ” I said. “If we’ve entered those days they’re gonna end some day and then what?” “Well,” he says, “she wrote it. It’s her responsibility.”

Ok with undeniable proof FH is shown the sole proprietor of the infamous knockout blow prophesy. Even her own brother Oliver acknowledged it. Obviously her long study  period of about 7 or 8 months  produced her false ideas of the anti-typical 1260 day period. Her new code program was then set to facilitate her plans. Keep in mind what we have learned. This may have all have been a smoke screen to dissolve the whole thing on Mt. Carmel so she could reap the vast holdings there and get on down the road of life. Time would prove this is exactly what was done!

NOTE: Due to the continuing discovery of more information, we’ve had to add one more post to this series and we’ll post that part 6 soon.

Jewels from Bro. Saether’s Interview (Part 4 of 6)

7 Oct

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In concluding our last part of the interview of this series, we’ll show some great historical evidence from brother Saether.

SAETHER: In the spring now, April 22, the time was supposed to end, It’d
be better to tell ’em now than to wait. While I was thinking
that, word came that I should go out, that we’d have a council
meeting. When I got there they’d already had the council meeting and
they were discussing the question—about those plagues. I could
see that it might happen. I told them when I came in, I said, 

“I just was impressed that we ought to write and tell the people
that we’re mistaken. That we made a blunder here and we want to
rectify it before that time comes. There’s still time,”
Anyway, they didn’t see it that way and they had something
else showing that these plagues would—we were causing these
plagues to the church, you see, by all this.

McGEE: When was that date established and who established it?

SAETHER: Well, we met in council meeting sometime after this.
When this was I don’t recollect.

McGEE: This would be sometime after the fall of 1955?

SAETHER: Right. After—well, “What time’s this going to end now?”
That’s what interested me. That would be the debacle, I figured.
(laughing) To go along with something like that, that was something.
Anyway, I tried to be as agreeable as possible. We decided this: that when that information went out in that code, that must have marked the day when those twenty-three hundred days— I wondered what it would be. Maybe Brother Houteff’s
death. We discussed those things. Decided that it was the day
the code went out. We weren’t all agreed on that, but I think
pretty much agreed. 

When did it happen? On the twenty-second. It was just a
happenstance. That was the Jewish Passover, came that year—
You know, that changes from year to year. The twenty-second was
the day of the Jewish Passover. Some felt that was quite significant.
Well, maybe it was.

McGEE: The tithe had gone down because I guess after 1959 there
was a good deal of disillusionment.

SAETHER: Especially after 1955. 1955 and then 1959, that was when
all the agitation by—you know, all those Branch members, they
weren’t paying tithe anymore. They paid it to Roden.  (Interview no. 8, p.383-394)

McGEE: I see. Well, let me ask you this. The date was April—

SAETHER: —22 .

McGEE: —22 . Can you describe what happened on that day?
(pause) Nothing, huh?

SAETHER: Nothing.

McGEE: Zero. (chuckling)

McGEE: You mentioned Mrs. Houteff’s apparent effort to erase this
or help people forget it. During this time—in 1959—was she
really in charge of things or was there a lack of leadership or
was someone else in charge?

SAETHER: She was in charge. Of course, she had the council and
then these young ministers, one of which was Dudley Goff. Afterwards,
subsequently, he spoke over the radio. We had several radio stations scattered all over the country. How many, I’ve forgotten. 

McGEE: As you look back on what was going on in 1959 during that period,
do you see any signs of the conflict that was later to come out
in the open and break the movement apart?

SAETHER: Well, there were upshoots or offshoots, I’ll say, of our
movement. Bingham was one of them. And Roden was another and Bashan was there from Washington, D.C, and who else? There were several there and the most aggravating was this man Roden. 

You see, he got these people out around Odessa to follow
him and I think most of them liked Brother Roden. He was a
pleasant sort of fellow. A big man. His wife was right with
him in everything he did and I thought many times that she was
the power behind the throne. What she decided, that’s the way
it went.

They came there to the meetings and I think this: that if
you were a member of the organization once and you disagree, I
think a person ought to be heard. I believe, let them voice their
opinion, not squelch it. Because that’s the treatment we received
from the mother church ourselves. But I don’t think a person
ought to come in and disrupt a meeting. I don’t think that’s
fair, either. That’s what they tried to do.

SAETHER: When the meeting was over in 1959, I had my
own opinion of the whole transaction. In fact, I was not in favor
of this meeting. And, it was really, you might say, put over, by
the vice president.
She wanted to talk to me about this doctrine that she had.
This was along in the spring of 1955. She talked all afternoon
trying to persuade me to her viewpoint and I didn’t—I wanted
to be polite;

I didn’t want to be rude and so I told her, “I can see you have a point there in regard to this not occurring in the Dark Ages but the rest of it, I don’t see it.” And she
just begged me to see it. But, I said, “No, I don’t see it.”
I thought she was losing her mind, just the way she looked
and everything. Several months later in November—we had a monthly
magazine then. The monthly magazine came out and they were passing them out with our mail and I stood and opened that up and it
says there, “We now know that we have entered these days,”
it’s Revelations 11. And my—

SAETHER: As I said, I was not in favor of it and I went along
with it. I mean, I didn’t just oppose it and I should have.
I should have put my foot right down on it because it was done
illegally. She should have brought this before the council and had it all decided. This isn’t the first time that she did something like this.

When we were selling this property here in Waco she sold—
I’ve forgotten how many acres, herself, without any okay from
the council at all. And to this day I don’t know what the price
she got for it. I don’t remember and I think it wasn’t clear
how much she got but I think she made a big mistake doing that.
And, not only that, it was illegal. She didn’t have the backing
of the council. That was the agreement;

all the sales had to be okayed first by the council. And then the board of trustees—
signed the deeds to the properties that we sold. We sold lot by lot. (Interview  no. 10, p.421-423)

Due to length of the posts, we’ll do one more final post as a summary. We will particularly concentrate on revealing what brother Saether spoke about Florence and Roden. These two notorious historical figures that prominently made serious diversions to the Rod message, yet nevertheless It will triumph!

Jewels from Bro. Saether’s Interview (Part 3 of 6)

22 Sep

Related image

Baylor University Institute for Oral History

 

Continuing with part three —

SAETHER: The thought came to me like this: if in 1954 when I
asked Brother Houteff two questions about Revelations, a book
that he had written quite a little on and talked a lot on—if
he wasn’t able to answer two simple questions about this because
he wasn’t up to par, then what dependence could you put
on his statement when he was just ready to die?

Would his word and his opinions and his judgment be better or worse  than it was say, six months before that? In 1954?

No, I tell you, I think the Hermansons were ambitious and
the first thing that was done—well I might mention this, that
Brother Bingham was dowm in the Caribbeans at the time.

McGEE: At the time of Brother Houteff’s death? 

SAETHER: Yeah, his death. He was sent a cablegram right away
that Brother Houteff had died. As I recall he came back right
away. Of course, he didn’t like the setup, (pause) As I look
back over it I don’t know what we could have done better, than
to have had Mrs. Houteff as the leader because of this rivalry
between especially Brother Bingham and Brother Wolfe. We didn’t
know anything about Roden at the time. It wasn’t until in the
fall of the year— 

McGEE: Of 1955?

SAETHER: Of 1955—that Roden came to the fore.

McGEE: Brother Wilson did not resist the idea of Mrs. Houteff
being named vice president in his place?

SAETHER: He was sick at the time and I don’t know how it was that
his name was by-passed. As I see it now, he was considered incompetent.
I think maybe he was. There was something eating on
him. He was here—right here in this building in one of these
rooms, in what we called the dispensary.

We had a duplex here. This was one room and that was another and then we had a bedroom over there and kitchen in here, and a bathroom. The same setup
was on the other end of this duplex. It was used for a dispensary
for anyone that was sick. He was in here as I understand it. He was not out in field work. He was here as a patient.

McGEE: Anyway, he was in no position I suppose to object to this
and as far as you know he did not object to being replaced?

SAETHER: No. We had the authority to do it and, as I recall,
we considered that he was—because I’d talked with him here—he
and I were good friends.
He was a very amiable man but he could be stern, too. He
was stern when he was manager in Brother Houteff’s absence.

He had been a leader among the Adventists. And a man has to be, to be a president of a conference he deals with all kinds of people
especially the workers. There are quite a few workers in a
conference. 

McGEE: … Mrs. Houteff was now vice president and general manager. How did things develop from that point forward? 

SAETHER: The first thing that she said when we had our council
meeting was, “I want you men to go all over the camp,” I guess
we used to call it the camp. We figured this was just a camp,
see. We’re just camping out here for the duration.
When Brother Houteff first started this work he figured it
would be all over in a year. When he first started out there in
California there was just a unit there.

Well, then when they came here that was different but he called this a camp. He got
that from Ezekiel, that we should set up a camp and the church
is the city and that’s what we did...She said, “I’m interested in the Bible study and I want to do some private studying.” Well, it wasn’t long after that— 

...This was in 1955 and Mrs. Houteff cornered me one day in the office. We closed at noon on Friday so everybody could go home and get ready for Sabbath.  She cornered me there and she talked all afternoon to me, trying to persuade me
to her idea in Revelation 11. 

Well, one thing I could see and I acknowledged this right
away. I told her, “I can see you’re right in this, that those
days didn’t take place back in the Dark Ages as the church had
thought and as we thought. Brother Houteff thought and taught.

We taught that those days were the days of papal supremacy and
had to do with that. I could see that they don’t. They’re in
present time. That they apply now in any definite way, you
haven’t shown it. You haven’t got the proof, you haven’t got
the backing of it. Where is the proof of this?”

I was courteous with her, I wasn’t rough. I should have
even made fun of it but I didn’t. She was in earnest, I thought
she’d lost her mind.

….I thought that Mrs. Houteff was wrong but she talked all
afternoon. Hour after hour. Pleading with me. Just pleading.
What she should have done was taken it to the council. What she
did was go to each individual in the council and talk with them
about it. 

That’s what she must have done because in the fall of the year
we sent out a code—every month a code came out. In this code, on
November 9, we opened them—we got them over at the office—they
were sent out to the—that’s what was printed I think, as I recall.

Fifteen hundred had been sent out to the people and there it
says, “We’ve now entered these days.” When I opened it up I was
dumbfounded. I knew she talked to me about it but that’s the last
I heard of it. Not another word was said.

In March—it was in March that she told me this or April,
March, we’ll say. April, May, June, July, August, September,
October, November, eight months—not a word. Not a word was said.
In the council or anywhere else. It was just kept on the q,t.
Then, she come out and said we’d entered these days.

Hermanson was getting his mail—they were distributing the
mail over in the office, to the office workers. He got his code,
too, with the mail and he gave us each our code. The codes had
been sent out. Taken dovm to the post office. So they’d gone
out to all the people.
I said, “Did you see this?” “Yes.” “We’ve now entered these
days, ” I said. “If we’ve entered those days they’re gonna end
some day and then what?” “Well,” he says, “she wrote it. It’s
her responsibility.”

SAETHER: Right then and there what I should have said and insisted
on, was that this thing should be brought before the council and if
it could be proven we’d accept it. But, if it can’t, we’ll tell the
people there’s a mistake made. How easy that would have been compared
to what happened. Well, I didn’t know what to do about it.

McGEE: How did things develop after the fall of 1955 when this
message went out? How did things develop here at Mt. Carmel?

SAETHER: It was quite a shock to many of the Davidians that Brother
Houteff died. Some felt that he never would die, that he’d be the
king in the new kingdom. He taught, and we all believed, that there
was to be a kingdom. There were some things we couldn’t understand,I couldn’t. But I couldn’t get a better answer. That was my policy,
if you can’t give a better reason, a better answer, better not say
anything. Why criticize something if you can’t have a better answer
for it? I couldn’t see through some of those things.

McGEE: All right. Then along comes this message that we’re in
the last days—”We’re in these days.” How did the people respond
to that over the next year or two?

SAETHER: I think there was division came in then, more than before.
This came out November 9, [1955]. About October 9 or 10, somewhere
around there, we received a letter from Springfield, Missouri,
general delivery. The group of Davidians wanted to come to Mt.
Carmel, in a group, and they wanted our permission to come as a
group. If it was satisfactory we should let them know by a certain
date and if not they were going to come then.

….In two or three days here came a whole group of people from
West Texas. I knew almost all of them. There was a woman that—
she was just a young woman. She was just a girl here and married
while she was here. They left and she had three children in the
interim.

They were here, too, with her There were two other
women from California, I think, that I’d never seen. But the
Rodens and the Bowlings and different ones from out there who
lived out in West Texas, They came in and they—we had seats in the office. We had
sort of a lobby out there in front and had curtains. Not curtains
but counters, on three sides, with openings, two openings. It
made a really nice lobby there. 

…They wanted to pray and have the children pray, too.
What did the children know about this and they were famished?
They were healthy young children. They looked like they hadn’t
been fasting at all because they were just as healthy as any children
you ever saw. The father was really a husky fellow. He had
been a student here, too. The mother was a strong woman. Well,
they went on and we couldn’t get head or tail. Some of the people were actually discourteous to us.

McGEE: Now, these people had just suddenly showed up from West Texas?

SAETHER: Yes. But they came in answer to The Branch. Now they had—
this letter was signed The Branch. Well, who’s The Branch?

Finally after a long time we understood that they were the ones
that wrote this letter. And The Branch. Well who’s The Branch?
They didn’t tell us who The Branch was for a long time. Finally,
it was Brother Roden. He acted like he was modest but we subsequently
found out that this modesty was just all put on.

McGEE: What had he done? Had he written inviting them to come
here? Had he sent out a —

SAETHER: He—they’d all lived out there. He knew them out—
they evidently met together and they had the phones. They all
lived right there. I’d never been right there at Odessa but
I knew about where that was. Little towns all around there.

I just thought it was daffy, you know. I didn’t realize—I
didn’t realize the seriousness of it. To me it was just foolishness.
Them putting on a demonstration like that.

But what it was, Dr, McGee, they were using incantation. That’s
the way incantation was. Either by words or action, by song. They
do something. What was it designed for? It was designed to terrorize
us. To make us fear, fearful, that fire was coming down and destroy
us unless we’d leave. Then if we’d leave what would happen? They’d step in and take over. 

That was the idea. That’s what they wanted us to—they
were going to scare us. Nobody was scared. I never saw any
intimation that any of the people there—the office workers
were there—and the council members. Just about every available
person was there.

McGEE: So this group showed up from the Odessa area? What happened
that day, that night?

SAETHER: They pulled out and—

McGEE: Did they pull out because the council decided that they
were not welcome or —

SAETHER: No, They were just going to leave us to our fate.

McGEE: Oh, yes. I see

.McGEE: All right. He was with this group from Odessa and they
were talking about The Branch which was the term which he had
created or they had created to describe their particular movement?

SAETHER: That’s right.

SAETHER: It seems, too, that later—after Brother Houteff’s death—
and in that year of 1955—Bingham was electioneering already. What
he wanted to do—he was asked to come here but he refused to come
here. After Brother Houteff’s death—as I understand it—it made
him sick, I guess, because he said he couldn’t carry on his work
so he went home to his home, where his mother lived, in California.

SAETHER: This was Bingham. His wife was here. He’d been separated
from her ten years, I guess. He wanted to go out and visit all the
people. Well, Mrs. Houteff said he should come here. He worked
here in the office. But he wouldn’t come.

McGEE: All right. Let’s continue with that story then. What
happened with that group in the immediate future?

SAETHER: They came again on the twenty-second of October. This time they really—well, I’ll tell you, I’ve forgotten what their position then was. They went away and if they didn’t come back on the twenty-fifth. Now the twenty-fifth was what we call our
Day of Days. Back in 1938 when Brother Houteff was gone to
Europe, there was a rebellion then. Headed by M, J. Bingham
against Elder Wilson’s regime.

McGEE: Um-hum. Well, what happened on this Day of Days, October 25,
1955? The Rodens, you say, were back here on October 25.

SAETHER: Yes, and it was the same thing, trying to get a foothold
some way or other.

McGEE: Were they able to get a foothold?

SAETHER: Not with anybody here, I don’t think. As I recall, there
wasn’t anybody that went with them or—

SAETHER: Yes, those people are deceitful, those Rodens. Deceitful.
They’re treacherous. Because they’re possessed of the devil.
They must be. They’ve resorted to various forms of incantation.

….I went back to the office later on and the wind was out of
their sails. They were allowed to come in the office. That is,
two or three at a time. Roden was in there. He wanted to buy
some charts and Hermanson asked him, “Are you prepared to pay your bill here?” When he came here as a gardener he ran quite a
bill. He just ignored what he said. He didn’t pay any attention
to it. I’m pretty sure that he still owes that bill. He didn’t
pay it. He volunteered to come and have an organic garden. 

It takes something to put a large family—to come and stay for
months at a time and no income. That was his agreement but he
owed this seven hundred dollars anyway, for rent and food and
one thing and another.
That indicates the kind of a leader they had behind them. It’s of the devil.

McGEE: …Mrs. Houteff had said that we were in these days. That was in 1955. Did she
continue to elaborate on her prophecy during 1956 and 1957?

SAETHER Yes, It was in the code that was sent out to our own
people.

McGEE: What kind of response did she get to that?

SAETHER: Some of them believed and some of them didn’t. There
was a division. The very fact that about a thousand people came
here in 1959 showed that they had some reservations as to whether
they believed or didn’t believe. Some of them became believers.

McGEE: How did things develop in the council during 1956 and 1957?
Did the council go along with Mrs. Houteff? Did she continue to
exert leadership?

SAETHER: Yeah, I think so. I was really the only one who was at
loggerheads in regards this moving but I went along with it. Not
very enthusiastic, but I went along with it. It was a—it was
something that— We had opposition on the outside. There was
Bashan and there were the Rodens, there were the Binghams.

…I was approached by Sister Houteff in regard to this question
of there’d be twelve hundred and sixty days in—all one Friday
afternoon. I can see that it didn’t go on back in the Dark Ages
but I couldn’t see how it applied today. What evidence was there that those days were beginning? I can’t see it today. There
is no evidence. And, there wasn’t any then. I think that we
ought to have let the people know that we were mistaken. We
were mistaken.  (Interview no. 8, p.336-383)

…To be continued  with part four